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non-Clarity

HARE333HARE333 Posts: 11
Virtual Boy (or Girl)
So I purchased the CV1, without demo'ing it.

SDE
I fly Aces High 3, only game I play. RIFT was gonna bring new dimension to the game, which is does in spades. I mean WOW! However the SDE is killing me. I was quite surprised, this is a no brainer, why would anyone settle for such a poor display quality in an HMD.
 Now I understand the whys, I understand the limitations, I understand even why someone might convince themselves for the trade offs that were made. Been reading a lot, too much maybe.

But I cannot see into the distance in the flight game. The pixelation is exponential with distance.
You must look directly at something, up close, for any kind of clarity.
The overall FOV is fine, but the focusable area is so small that over 50% is out of focus, add the SDE  and your eyes cannot focus on much, they want to focus on something and get tired trying to and failing.
Then add in the refresh rate, 90Hz flicker OWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!
Now again, a flight game, even fields, light sky colors, it all blends to a piece of screening ocsillating rapidly......

Now I have read many things about mods and yada, I have even done my first. I made a faceplate extender cushion tonight. 
1- it will add some better comfort I hope
2- It will push the entire HMD out from my face, equidistantly, about 1/4 or 3/8". My manually pulling it out seemed to help moi.

The other thing that comes to mind is this.
Add a layer of rear projection screen material, 1 cm on top of OLED display or whatever distance your testing deems best. This material is designed to pass the light, it would provide a slight polarizing effect, theres multiple kinds. This way the fresnel lens would not see the pixel boundries, the brilliance could be increased without as much god ray issues. It can be worked into the eyecups where the displays attach, just a spacer and.......................

OCCULUS, this is a simple cheap fix, why a silly client has to point it out is just dumb. You are at the forefront of a revolution and stumbling over a very basic, untill the display tech gets to a point that sde do not matter, cheat damit!
PS: I was thinking this way and then found all the mods for this, so I am not really crazy. But the right projection material is the way to go.

Hi quality rear projection materials, plastics is waiting.............
 >:) 

Comments

  • LZoltowskiLZoltowski Posts: 2,019 Volunteer Moderator
    Curious, how would a rear-projection material help here? Can you draw a diagram?

    In my AV experience rear-projection materials are semi opaque so that the light can catch onto the material.
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  • vannagirlvannagirl Posts: 723 Poster of the Week
    It must be me but when SDE is mentioned on cv1 i am suprised

    I have become completely unaware of it anymore.

    To the op though it will disappear  :)
    Look, man. I only need to know one thing: where they are. 
  • XsjadiaXsjadia Posts: 289
    Art3mis
    Yeah... If you're wanting clarity for objects that are in the distance, as you know OP, we aren't there yet. I too was a bit agitated when I first got the Rift and tried to use Virtual Desktop to play games, only to find that the lack of clarity made the games much worse than if I had played on my monitor.

    But, as vannagirl said, you'll notice it less and less as you continue to have VR experiences. VR is at a point to where the user needs to have an open-mind and willingness to believe when diving in, as to really convince them of what they're seeing around them.

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  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 1,034 Poster of the Week
    As @vannagirl has said after a while you won't notice it.

    Blimey, I hate to think how the OP would cope with the Vive instead. The Rift's displays and optics are sharper and clearer than the Vive's, has less SDE and a larger sweet spot...and the Rift also focuses into infinity, something that is ESSENTIAL for any cockpit game  :o
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  • KillCardKillCard Posts: 621 Poster of the Week
    edited April 21
    I get what he's talking about but I don't think it's really the SDE that's at fault.

    It's just the low resolution of the display. Mind you the resolution is high enough for most gaming, but as I've found when playing War Thunder, trying to identify what kind of plane someone is flying about 1km away from you is pretty much impossible. You need to get within like 200-300 meters to be able to make out enough of the aircraft structure to accurately identify friend/foe and what they are flying to be able to determine the best way to attack them.

    If you're running a 4k Flat display though you can make those determinations a lot earlier from a longer distance. It's not something that makes me notice the SDE, for me at least .. but I can imagine staring at the little dots so hard that the SDE will pop out at you.

    On an unrelated note, I was completely unaware of Aces High .. I'm gonna have to check it out.
  • KillCardKillCard Posts: 621 Poster of the Week
    Look into the scary dots @KillCard  

    dots GIF
    Geez .. I stopped looking at it for a second then when I looked again it was going in the other direction! .. SORCERY!
  • kojackkojack Posts: 3,115 Volunteer Moderator
    snowdog said:

    and the Rift also focuses into infinity, something that is ESSENTIAL for any cockpit game  :o
    DK1 focuses at infinity.
    DK2 focuses at 1.3m.
    CV1 focuses at 2m.

  • Hiro_Protag0nistHiro_Protag0nist Posts: 2,827 Valuable Player
    I can honestly say i have never, ever noticed any SDE in the CV1.  The first time i put it on and fired up Oculus Dreamdeck i just couldn't believe how good the picture was. 
  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 1,034 Poster of the Week
    kojack said:
    snowdog said:

    and the Rift also focuses into infinity, something that is ESSENTIAL for any cockpit game  :o
    DK1 focuses at infinity.
    DK2 focuses at 1.3m.
    CV1 focuses at 2m.

    Nope. That's the Focal Distance. Completely different thing. Your eyes are focusing at 2m with the CV1, so if you can see 2m in front of your face without needing glasses you won't need to use glasses when viewing stuff that appears up close or appears in the distance.

    By focusing into infinity I'm talking about the way the optics and displays of the Rift make things in the far distance appear miles away, whereas the optics and displays of the Vive make things in the far distance appear A LOT closer. So if you're playing Elite Dangerous or Project CARS on a Vive stuff in the far distance only appears a few hundred feet away.

    I'm probably not explaining things too well but I did plenty of research before opting for the Rift, and the majority of that research was done by following people's impressions that have/had both headsets and reported that the Vive DOESN'T focus into infinity. You REALLY notice the difference when playing cockpit based games apparently.
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  • kojackkojack Posts: 3,115 Volunteer Moderator
    It was falsely reported by iFixit to be infinity on the CV1, and that spread all over the internet. Michael Abrash (Oculus Chief Scientist) stated at Oculus Connect 3 that the depth of focus of the CV1 is really 2m.


  • HARE333HARE333 Posts: 11
    Virtual Boy (or Girl)
    Curious, how would a rear-projection material help here? Can you draw a diagram?

    In my AV experience rear-projection materials are semi opaque so that the light can catch onto the material.
    What is SDE. We are seeing the actual nest each pixel sits in, correct. Imagine a circle inside a square. The circle glows, the square is an inert fence. The fresnel lens focus's right on top of the display, as stated elsewhere , these displays really require 8" of distance for best viewing, so. By using the rear projection screen or glass you can allow the light from the pixels to expand out, it will travel out out as a cone, place the added screen where that cone of light would expand to the pixels fence line, let light mix on the screen then fresnel that.

    This would deal with SDE, godray, and help contrast. Peeps been modding similarally but with inferior materials, use quality materials. Use a very clear, polorized projection material.............

    If Occulus can design a special fresnel lens for rift, they can find a quality materiel for this. Hell the mod for this would just get pinched between lens and display structure. In a frame that placed the projection material at correct distance from display.

    The foam extender I made helped a lot, I have old guy eyes and moving the HMD away helped considerably. The lens need front to back adjustment as well as IPD adjustment. hint hint

    And no I will never not see SDE, come on folks, its a physical limitation knowingly built in. Occulus should have dealt with this upfront, chose not to. Why do you think they closed demo stations, to demo would be to kill a sale!

    Occulus has done a great thing, helped start a revolution in pc veiwing but on the most primary of basics they missed the mark. How Occulus fixes and copes will be its future or not. But accepting piss poor clarity, NO!

  • lovethislovethis Posts: 2,874 Poster of the Week
    @HARE333 - If this is the answer then you could make yourself rich by making a faceplate with these lenses attached.
  • Techy111Techy111 Posts: 2,728 Valuable Player
    edited April 22
    Piss poor clarity? No way mate. There is thousands of people using the CV1 and almost all know of the current tech limitations. I only use my cv1 for flight sims and don't notice the sde whatsoever. If people thought what you did then there would be a mass revolt and thousands of returns. But that hasn't happened. Did you say you researched fully before purchase ? Stick with it mate, you will grow into it's faults and limitations and enjoy it for what it is now. An amazing bit of kit. ;) oooh and a quick edit........its Oculus one C :)
    A PC with lots of gadgets inside and a thing to see in 3D that you put on your head.
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  • HARE333HARE333 Posts: 11
    Virtual Boy (or Girl)
    There is thousands of people using the CV1 and almost all know of the current tech limitations.

    ie: piss poor clarity

    CV1 sales lag behind VIVE greatly.

    If I had demo'ed it, which is my fault for not, I would not have purchased. Plain and simple. Its only good for social media and like drivel. For a flight sim, its tough. No my eyes will not forget!  In fact they buzzed for hours after a 2 hour session in AH.

    The word choice I quoted just states my case. And many do not know. They see videos of display frames that coincide with rift and get a non SDE image. Just because some peeps are willing to accept a limitation does not make it good! I made this assumption, I assumed the pics I saw were pics thru a rift, NOT!

    Listen I am not trying to be a dick. But for game play its tough. Flying AH is a whole new experience with the rift, but this poor clarity is bad for the eyes. It also needs to be a little brighter, some kind of display adjustments.......
    I luv so many aspects of it, I cannot see..............

    Eventually I will just mod it myself, once I have to put it down cuz its ruining my eyes, I will have nothing to loose opening it up. and yes I have the skills. After all I will change nothing electrically or program wise.

    I expect Occulus to step up but they have MicroSoft syndrome, deliver/sell unfinished product and hope no one complains to much.
  • lovethislovethis Posts: 2,874 Poster of the Week
    edited April 22
    @Hare33 - When you do Mod it can you put up some pics? I might give it a go myself if I don't risk electrocuting myself. Just a couple of pics and list of materials if it's a cheap fix. Thank you!

  • vannagirlvannagirl Posts: 723 Poster of the Week
    edited April 22
    HARE333 said:

    I expect Occulus to step up but they have MicroSoft syndrome, deliver/sell unfinished product and hope no one complains to much.

    I think the room was with you until this


    Look, man. I only need to know one thing: where they are. 
  • Phil007Phil007 Posts: 43
    Lawnmower Man (or Woman)
    I'm interested in your mod too. SDE is something i can live with as i find VR to be awesome. But if there turns out to be a way to reduce the effect, great!
    I do wonder how people are so surprised to see it though. I expected it because i can see the individual pixels on a mobile phone a lot further than an inch away.
    Gaming on a big projection screen at around the resolution of the rift, it is the same effect. The distance is getting harder to decipher. I don't think your mod will be able to fix that, there just isnt the resolution. Especially i think because of the pentile pixel arrangement.
    Over the years as i have upgraded my monitor resolution, the biggest effect it has had in games is the clarity in viewing distances. 
    When consoles went from 480p to 720p there was a lot of complaint that text was unreadable on the 480p picture. At 720p it was readable but at 480p the font size was too small to have the clarity. Same thing applies with VR. The problem for vr being that it is an exponential increase in resolution needed.

    I loved gaming when it was pixels the size of my fist. When a snooker game had 3 blue balls because the computer couldn't have enough colours on screen. I see Vr a little like this. It is the start of a new medium of gaming. The essence is there "gaming". For me the gaming is enhanced tremendously by the VR. However, the graphics fidelity is a downgrade, everything else is an upgrade. 

    AS with my example of the text from 480p to 720p, i think as devs learn more and release more made for vr titles, they will find ways to show this text or information that are better suited to the resolution. EG making text larger without it looking out of place or style.


  • HARE333HARE333 Posts: 11
    Virtual Boy (or Girl)
    I do wonder how people are so surprised to see it though. I expected it because i can see the individual pixels on a mobile phone a lot further than an inch away. 

    to be honest, I made an assumption, I assumed that this kind of thing had been dealt with. To me its the most basic thing, without a proper display, the rest is superfluous. I assumed that clarity would not be an issue, afterall its suppose to shine in a game environment. Realtime gaming is the test, if you cannot see clearly, its useless then for game purposes. I mean online, realtime against many opponents, you gotta see.
    How about trying to use it as a working tool where you design parts, buildings, etc.... be dam tough as well. The lines in your drawings would conflict with the SDE...............

    What if the LED pixel substrate was white instead of black, mirrored............

    Japan Display, 8K res displays................

    What are the chances of FaceBook offering 4K upgrades which are available.....................:/

    credible, this is no longer a product in development. Oculus made the leap and deemed their product consumer ready, it ain't. They sold it as is anyways, exactly what MS does. Its my opinion, only.
  • lovethislovethis Posts: 2,874 Poster of the Week
    edited April 24
    @HARE333 - I've played PVP games since 1999 and believe me the resolution was pretty bad on a 2D monitor back then. That didn't stop people playing these games and enjoying them though. The Rift isn't capable of running 4K screens yet. What hardware do you reckon it would take to run two 4k screens right now? The Geforce 1080ti has just come out and only manages to run one 4k screen, so I don't know how you think the Rift could manage to run two 4k screens. 

    Personally, I'm not seeing what you're seeing though. I know in flight-sims it does look blurry in the distance, but I don't see this screen door you're talking about. I saw it in the DK2, but I don't see it in the CV1. I play games like Onward in the Rift which is a PVP and I don't have a problem.
  • snowdogsnowdog Posts: 1,034 Poster of the Week
    You can see the SDE but it really isn't that bad and after a while you fail to notice it unless you look for it.

    And with regards to 4K screens, it's not just 2 x 4K screens but 2 x 4K screens at at least 90fps too. Even with foveated rendering that's going to be impossible for a 1080Ti.

    For the CV2 we'll end up seeing a slight increase in resolution (maybe 2K), an increase in FOV, foveated rendering and an increase to the recommended spec to a 980Ti or 1070. And we won't see that until late 2018 or early 2019.

    For 4K screens you'll be looking at the CV3 around late 2021 or early 2022 imo.
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  • Paddy234Paddy234 Posts: 33
    Lawnmower Man (or Woman)
    edited April 25
    snowdog said:
    You can see the SDE but it really isn't that bad and after a while you fail to notice it unless you look for it.

    And with regards to 4K screens, it's not just 2 x 4K screens but 2 x 4K screens at at least 90fps too. Even with foveated rendering that's going to be impossible for a 1080Ti.

    For the CV2 we'll end up seeing a slight increase in resolution (maybe 2K), an increase in FOV, foveated rendering and an increase to the recommended spec to a 980Ti or 1070. And we won't see that until late 2018 or early 2019.

    For 4K screens you'll be looking at the CV3 around late 2021 or early 2022 imo.
    Not necessarily, games in VR don't have near the same graphics as non VR PC games so they won't have to process much graphically and we must not forget that one of the reasons such expensive pc hardware is needed at times is because the games aren't optimized as well as they could be. Toning down the graphics a bit and optimizing it to the max means that a 1080 could play many games at 90fps at 4k. 2021 is 4 years away and 4k headets will be well out before then.  CV2 will most certainly include 4k otherwise it wouldn't be worth buying in my opinion 
  • elbofforelboffor Posts: 1,744 Poster of the Week
    What i don't understand is why they never used 4k displays but outputted lower than that. Therefore the sde would have been massively reduced and still only used the same horsepower to run.
    But i supppse using better uardware would have cut into the profits too much.

    The sde almost ruins racing games for me, as for the godrays, what pisses me off most about them is we cant have true blacks because of the dithering now used to reduce them :(
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  • lovethislovethis Posts: 2,874 Poster of the Week
    edited April 25
    I have to admit I never ever want to see Godrays again after CV1. If there's a hint of a Godrays in CV2 or any other device before it then I won't be buying it. Godrays are worse then any SDE to me, I nearly stuck with the DK2 until I realised touch controllers wouldn't work with it. I hate the light shine making you think you have a smudge your lenses or that they've fogged up. 
  • kojackkojack Posts: 3,115 Volunteer Moderator
    elboffor said:
    What i don't understand is why they never used 4k displays but outputted lower than that.
    Were there 4k oled low persistence 90Hz panels in sub mobile phone form factor available for mass production back when the CV1 was being designed?

  • HARE333HARE333 Posts: 11
    Virtual Boy (or Girl)

    I am surprised that my Gigabyte GTX1070G1 with a 4.5GHz cpu behind it can barely drive the CV1. I cannot SS past 1.3 without losing to much performance headroom. Dropped frames in a combat arena means dead.

    Godrays can be dealt with by adjusting the ports brilliance and hue in Nvidia panel. I run brilliance at 59%.

    The thing is that a mixing medium will fix this. get a quality material that will not distort and give the photons something to reflect off of. The medium will block us from direct view of the oled substrate, it will also stop the reflection of the Fresnel lens bouncing reflected oled light off the oled surface and back into the lens as focused relected concentric circles. It will create a pixelless image foundation that the lens then, focus's on.

    Yes its another part, yes it will cut light but its what we have now that will work. Increase the display intensity. Add a blublock if necessary and done. You work with what you got, not try and force something that fails at its base core.

    I 'll believe an interface can be provided that will work with current arrangement, inserting it between oled and lens tube. An HD mixing medium would help and its not a difficult fix.

    The PSVR HMD has an entirely different LED construction substrate, supposedly no SDE. Read a lot of stuff yesterday. I wonder why Oculus made the choice they made?

  • kzintzikzintzi Posts: 525
    Neo
    Paddy234 said:
    Not necessarily, games in VR don't have near the same graphics as non VR PC games so they won't have to process much graphically and we must not forget that one of the reasons such expensive pc hardware is needed at times is because the games aren't optimized as well as they could be. Toning down the graphics a bit and optimizing it to the max means that a 1080 could play many games at 90fps at 4k. 2021 is 4 years away and 4k headets will be well out before then.  CV2 will most certainly include 4k otherwise it wouldn't be worth buying in my opinion 

    I agree with you that a 1080 could play games at 4k at 90fps if it was optimised up the wazoo, but it'd be 8k @ 90fps (2 screens not one) that's a little hard to do with the current hardware - hell the 970's were right on the edge of being able to support the CV1/Vive as it was.

    Though you are more than slightly incoherent, I agree with you Madam,
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  • TwoHedWlfTwoHedWlf Posts: 1,803 Poster of the Week
    It wouldn't be 8k, it's 2X4k  8k would be about equivalent to 4X4k.

    Also, I'm not sure HDMI can handle the data rate required for 2X4K@90hz?
  • kzintzikzintzi Posts: 525
    Neo
    correct - my bad; maths fail :smile:

    still, much too much for existing hardware.

    personally I'd be happy with the existing quality in a smaller form factor. not that I don't like it now -  I'm just greedy
    Though you are more than slightly incoherent, I agree with you Madam,
    a plum is a terrible thing to do to a nostril.
  • HARE333HARE333 Posts: 11
    Virtual Boy (or Girl)
    lovethis said:
    @HARE333 - If this is the answer then you could make yourself rich by making a faceplate with these lenses attached.
    seems that some companies have tried films or media in front of screens OSVR DK.
    Unfortunately the only real way to tell which HMD is for you, is to try them all, on the same program, preferably your favorite game. Pretty impossible. As of now its all rampant as fake news when it comes to reviews. Depending on who you talk to........ I hate cheerleaders and hypers.

    As far as 4K performance. A lot of processing is being done here. It corrects for the fresnel lens, it creates depth of field thru massive pixel control, varying intensity, as well color. As better hardware is used, less software processing can be done, shifting that resource elsewhere.

    I have come to believe that the pixelation happens due to low intensity pixels to a large part. The illusion of distance, depth of field is created with a couple of methods. One being pixel ambient intensity, reduced for distance. The amount of pixels used for a distant object versus a close one. I am not sure how the software works, but I can say in general, its too dim. The pixel management is quite brilliant, truly the way to control the moving image but even distant objects need to stand out from background. The skins of the backgrounds need to be handled different from game objects. The game objects handled different from your craft, which they do but it needs pulled back a bit and brighter.
    It needs to treated as a display so we can use our state of the art video cards help options!
    and it needs ventilation.....................
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