A Thread About Blurryness - But from a different perspective

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A Thread About Blurryness - But from a different perspective

Postby epicslothz » July 10th, 2013, 5:20 am

So I was playing with the Rift last night and having the hardest time getting the IDP set correctly. I think I am literally not able to keep one eye closed while following the green line without my eye straining out (causing my fave to contort), and my other eye twitching open (which then makes the green line visible further off screen). This wasn't for all the steps in the setup, but there was at-least one of the steps I couldn't perform reliably. So far after about an hour of testing, I couldn't find the sweet spot with the A lenses.

But then upon further testing (busting out the B & C cups) I think setting up my IDP wasn't the issue. The B & C cups seemed to be better in my testing in some respects. And then I figured out why. The A lenses have a very small sweet spot, that if your eyes look through, everything is gravy. If your eyes wonder just slightly, you will be seeing blur. The B & C cups appear to have a far larger sweet spot.

Upon further testing, I believe A is the correct lens for me, and that I can even get my IDP setup fairly correctly, but I still get a lot of eye strain, and I think I know why.

I believe that the natural default gaze of my eyes are somewhat downward. So my eyes in their most comfortable position are always looking slightly below the sweet spot. If I look up, I hit the sweet spot, and all is gravy, but my eyes quickly revert to their more natural gaze, and everything goes blurry with it.

Anyone able to confirm my findings/having the same issue?
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Re: A Thread About Blurryness - But from a different perspec

Postby Huckleberry » July 10th, 2013, 8:56 am

Hey Epic....I had this very same experience. I felt like I could never get the device "in focus". And I also felt the C cups were the best for me, more "in focus", but couldn't figure out why. What you're suggesting sounds like it makes sense to me. I just couldn't believe I had "significant nearsightedness" as the Rift documentation suggests. My eyes have always been 20/20 with no issues (except a bit of mild color-blindness).

I was so confused by this that I went and got a full eye exam with an optometrist. My vision was, in fact, 20/20. So why would the C's feel the most comfortable?

The optometrist actually asked me to bring the Rift lenses back to her to test. I will ask her about the 'sweet spot' thing and update you when I know anything.
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Re: A Thread About Blurryness - But from a different perspec

Postby 360FOV » July 10th, 2013, 9:04 am

Huckleberry wrote:
The optometrist actually asked me to bring the Rift lenses back to her to test. I will ask her about the 'sweet spot' thing and update you when I know anything.


I believe the lenses are all identical with exception of distance from the screen. Give the optometrist the day off. :D
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Re: A Thread About Blurryness - But from a different perspec

Postby Huckleberry » July 10th, 2013, 9:07 am

360FOV wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:
The optometrist actually asked me to bring the Rift lenses back to her to test. I will ask her about the 'sweet spot' thing and update you when I know anything.


I believe the lenses are all identical with exception of distance from the screen. Give the optometrist the day off. :D


Really??? Do you know this for a fact, or is this just what you think? (And that is not meant to be sarcastic....I just meant that if that is documented somewhere I will give the optometrist the day off :) )
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Re: A Thread About Blurryness - But from a different perspec

Postby geekmaster » July 10th, 2013, 9:50 am

Huckleberry wrote:
360FOV wrote:I believe the lenses are all identical with exception of distance from the screen. Give the optometrist the day off. :D

Really??? Do you know this for a fact, or is this just what you think? (And that is not meant to be sarcastic....I just meant that if that is documented somewhere I will give the optometrist the day off :) )

When I tried comparing the lens focal lengths by measuring them, I thought that they were slightly different:
http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=140&t=17298#p121708

However, others thought the lenses were the same:
http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=140&t=17298#p122035

So the results seem to be inconclusive, but swapping lenses did work for one member who had a flat spot on a lens:
geekmaster wrote:CONCLUSION: It is difficult to draw a conclusion about the varying results between our tests. On one hand, I hand-held my lenses, while acknowledging at the end that I should use a test fixture for more accurate results, and my different measured distances may be attributable to measurement error because of that. But on the other hand, your test results used the lenses in a telescopic configuration, to image a distant object, while mine used a microscopic configuration just like is used in the Rift Dev Kit. I cannot draw a definitive conclusion from our results. What I would LIKE to see is your "SLR with shims" method used in a microscopic configuration similar to what I used. Then we can be certain of the results (unless somebody with more optical mathematics prowess can confirm that the telescope/microscope difference has no affect on the results).

That said, it is only the end results that matter in this situation, and I am glad that swapping lenses worked out so well for you.

Congratulations!

I have not seen official information either way from Oculus VR staff members, so I would love to hear what accurate optical intrumentation measurements by a trained optometrist will determine... Please let us know the results. Thanks!
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Re: A Thread About Blurryness - But from a different perspec

Postby epicslothz » July 10th, 2013, 11:34 am

360FOV wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:
The optometrist actually asked me to bring the Rift lenses back to her to test. I will ask her about the 'sweet spot' thing and update you when I know anything.


I believe the lenses are all identical with exception of distance from the screen. Give the optometrist the day off. :D


Have you had a chance to look at them yourself? From everything I can tell, the diameter where everything would be in focus is considerably larger on the B & C cups.

Tonight I will be focusing on trying to position the rift on my head at such an angle that the sweet spot lines up with my apparently lazy gaze. :lol:

As I sit at work today, I have tested multiple times. If I look straight (eyes looking at 90 degree angle from my my body) it is unnatural, my eyes can only focus for a few seconds before being tired. So in the rift this becomes a pretty big source of eye strain.
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Re: A Thread About Blurryness - But from a different perspec

Postby geekmaster » July 10th, 2013, 11:41 am

epicslothz wrote:Have you had a chance to look at them yourself? From everything I can tell, the diameter where everything would be in focus is considerably larger on the B & C cups.

Actually, the opposite is true. The diameter of screen intersection with the cone of view is larger as the lenses get farther from the screen. The C cups see about half as many pixels as the A cups, and the B cups are somewhere in between. However the pixels themselves do look considerably larger when using the C cups, although the diameter on the screen is considerably smaller.

I am copying this from another thread (once again), because it just keeps cropping up in many threads, and it answers several questions like yours:
At https://developer.oculusvr.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=2273&p=29797#p29797, geekmaster wrote:There have been a lot of discussions comparing lenses in the forums at OculusVR and at MTBS3D. What was most useful, I think, was an image that shows the difference in FoV between the different lenses. I will copy that image here:

1280x800 image, for viewing in the Rift DK:
regions.png

When you rotate your eye to look at an edge, your eye pupil gets closer to the edge of the lens which then blocks part of your peripheral vision at that edge. But that gives you more lens surface between your pupil and the OPPOSITE edge of the lens, so you have more peripheral vision is the direction you are NOT looking.

The magenta area is what almost nobody can see with the standard lenses. But when pressing the Rift face mask against my face to get a little extra FoV, I can see a little magenta out of the corner of my eye when looking AWAY from it.

The darkest area is what many people can see when looking forward or away from the edges (depending on face shape, and how close the lenses are to your eyes). For maximum FoV, many people (including myself) report that their eyelashes brush the lenses, while using the long A-cup lenses. However, for many people, the A-cup lenses reduce focus because of a very narrow sweet spot that may not allow both eyes to be in good focus at the same time.

The brightest area is what people see with the short C-cup lenses, or perhaps when using the Rift adjusted according to the Valve recommendation (lenses farthest from the eyes).

The blue area is what some people see with the B-cup lenses.

These things will vary depending on how the Rift fits your face, where it is positioned on your face, and how close your eyes are to the lenses. But the image above gives a good general approximation of what you can expect to see in your FoV.

Games that put black pixels in place of the magenta are are fine, because it is very rare that any of those black pixels would extend into my FoV.

Games that put black pixels into the darkest area shown above annoy me greatly, because a black border extends annoyingly into my peripheral FoV on the sides when I look in the other direction, like moving blinders. I hate that. It is disgustingly annoying.

Note to developers: PLEASE render out to the inner edges of the magenta area shown above. For performance reasons, you may ALLOW people to reduce that, or perhaps you can automate the FoV reduction when the framerate gets too low on deficient computing hardware. But do not impose such limits on me, okay? Thanks! I and others who choose to use maximum FoV (perhaps sacrificing best focus) will love you for it.
;)

As you can see from that quoted post, your FoV is highly dependent on your choice of lenses, and the distance between your eyes and your lenses.
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Re: A Thread About Blurryness - But from a different perspec

Postby epicslothz » July 10th, 2013, 11:57 am

I'm not talking about how much of the screen can be seen. I am talking about the useable part of the lens; the amount your eyes can wander from the center and still focus on the details of the screen. It appears that B and C have a fare larger area in which your eyes can wander before going out of focus.
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Re: A Thread About Blurryness - But from a different perspec

Postby geekmaster » July 10th, 2013, 11:59 am

epicslothz wrote:I'm not talking about how much of the screen can be seen. I am talking about the useable part of the lens; the amount your eyes can wander from the center and still focus on the details of the screen. It appears that B and C have a fare larger area in which your eyes can wander before going out of focus.

Oh, I see. Yes, the A lenses have a very restricted sweet spot. So small in fact, that I cannot get a good focus for both eyes at the same time (which others have also reported). The other lenses are more forgiving, and the C lenses give overall best focus for me (but I prefer the larger FoV of the A lenses).

I thought you were referring to the screen surface rather than the lens surface. It causes less confusion like I had when you make that distinction very clear in your text. Thank you for clearing up that point of confusion for me.
:D
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Re: A Thread About Blurryness - But from a different perspec

Postby vin » July 10th, 2013, 12:44 pm

In my experiments, I've noticed this a bit. The lens cups need a way to adjust the distance to the eyes, I think. I find that with A cups, not only do I feel them on my eyes, which is annoying, but my left eye is blurry until I can increase the eye relief. I've been doing this by sticking something between the rift and my face on that side.
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Re: A Thread About Blurryness - But from a different perspec

Postby Huckleberry » July 10th, 2013, 1:18 pm

As an aside - I took the lenses to an optometrist. They are 3 different strengths. Interestingly, the lens in the A cup falls between the strength of the ones in the B and C cups.

Are people with 20/20 vision using the B or C cups with more success?
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Re: A Thread About Blurryness - But from a different perspec

Postby 360FOV » July 10th, 2013, 1:29 pm

Huckleberry wrote:
360FOV wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:
Do you know this for a fact


I was just making an assumption based on several post I had seen. Going to the optometrist is starting to sound like a nice idea. Having an official measurement couldn't hurt. :)

Just as a side note - the sweet spot doesn't seem to change for me with different cups. Regardless of the cup I choose it seems quite large and only takes a fraction of a second to find. The FOV only appears to be very minimally affected also. I think it has a lot to do with the shape of our face. Cheekbones, nose size, eye socket depth, so many variables. When I first tried it was more difficult to find until I realized I needed to pull the Rift slightly lower on my cheekbones than I would have suspected to be required. Maybe you are vertically challenged also, instead of IPD challenged.
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Re: A Thread About Blurryness - But from a different perspec

Postby dariusu » July 10th, 2013, 7:45 pm

I have 20/20 vision and I found the A cups to be blurry. I noticed it the most when trying to read text in half-life 2 and Skyrim. The text was blurry but cleared up if I squinted. I switched to B cups and it is pretty much perfect now.
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Re: A Thread About Blurryness - But from a different perspec

Postby darren » July 11th, 2013, 6:23 am

geekmaster wrote:
epicslothz wrote:Have you had a chance to look at them yourself? From everything I can tell, the diameter where everything would be in focus is considerably larger on the B & C cups.

Actually, the opposite is true. The diameter of screen intersection with the cone of view is larger as the lenses get farther from the screen. The C cups see about half as many pixels as the A cups, and the B cups are somewhere in between. However the pixels themselves do look considerably larger when using the C cups, although the diameter on the screen is considerably smaller.


Actually the original statement is correct.

While the A cup may have more visible area, as you pointed out, it does not necessarily have a larger area that is in focus, and indeed the sweet spot on the A cup does seem to be small, and smaller than the B and C cups.
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Re: A Thread About Blurryness - But from a different perspec

Postby geekmaster » July 11th, 2013, 8:44 am

darren wrote:
geekmaster wrote:
epicslothz wrote:Have you had a chance to look at them yourself? From everything I can tell, the diameter where everything would be in focus is considerably larger on the B & C cups.
Actually, the opposite is true. The diameter of screen intersection with the cone of view is larger as the lenses get farther from the screen. The C cups see about half as many pixels as the A cups, and the B cups are somewhere in between. However the pixels themselves do look considerably larger when using the C cups, although the diameter on the screen is considerably smaller.
Actually the original statement is correct.

While the A cup may have more visible area, as you pointed out, it does not necessarily have a larger area that is in focus, and indeed the sweet spot on the A cup does seem to be small, and smaller than the B and C cups.

Oh noes! Not another internet wise-guy! Did you comment on my older obsolete post to prove me "wrong" in retaliation for requesting your apology for insulting Palmer Luckey?

Here is my newer post that makes your post also obsolete:
geekmaster wrote:
epicslothz wrote:I'm not talking about how much of the screen can be seen. I am talking about the useable part of the lens; the amount your eyes can wander from the center and still focus on the details of the screen. It appears that B and C have a fare larger area in which your eyes can wander before going out of focus.
Oh, I see. Yes, the A lenses have a very restricted sweet spot. So small in fact, that I cannot get a good focus for both eyes at the same time (which others have also reported). The other lenses are more forgiving, and the C lenses give overall best focus for me (but I prefer the larger FoV of the A lenses).

I thought you were referring to the screen surface rather than the lens surface. It causes less confusion like I had when you make that distinction very clear in your text. Thank you for clearing up that point of confusion for me.
:D

Are you also Direlight at the MTBS3D forums?
http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=140&t=18178

As I said before, we really do hope that you grow up to become a respectful and valuable forum member.

Note to all: I actually appreciate when people point out my mistakes in a respectful manner (when accompanied by factual supporting evidence) so that I can enhance the integrity and reliability of my own personal knowlege base. I take pride in the accuracy of my knowledge (which sadly, does not live up to the standards of my younger years -- age does that to you), which is why I rely on my "Google-Fu".
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Re: A Thread About Blurryness - But from a different perspec

Postby Inscothen » July 11th, 2013, 11:32 am

Huckleberry wrote:As an aside - I took the lenses to an optometrist. They are 3 different strengths. Interestingly, the lens in the A cup falls between the strength of the ones in the B and C cups.


what were the strengths? did they test both lenses from all three sets?

these are magnifying lenses, so if closer to the screen(C instead of A cup) the less blurring around edges of the lenses. if you are 20/20 I can't see how you can use with the C cups without causing eyestrain at least after minutes of use and still have your eyes in focus.
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Re: A Thread About Blurryness - But from a different perspec

Postby geekmaster » July 11th, 2013, 11:57 am

Inscothen wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:As an aside - I took the lenses to an optometrist. They are 3 different strengths. Interestingly, the lens in the A cup falls between the strength of the ones in the B and C cups.
what were the strengths? did they test both lenses from all three sets?

these are magnifying lenses, so if closer to the screen(C instead of A cup) the less blurring around edges of the lenses. if you are 20/20 I can't see how you can use with the C cups without causing eyestrain at least after minutes of use and still have your eyes in focus.

Unless the optometrist was very careful to measure exactly through the lens optical axes at their centers, those measurements may not be accurate. The eyecups themselves may have affected the results, depending on how the lenses mount in the optical measuring device.

More info about aspheric lenses:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspheric_lens

I like how aspherics can be fitted into eyeglasses:
Image
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Re: A Thread About Blurryness - But from a different perspec

Postby Huckleberry » July 11th, 2013, 12:32 pm

Inscothen wrote:
Huckleberry wrote:As an aside - I took the lenses to an optometrist. They are 3 different strengths. Interestingly, the lens in the A cup falls between the strength of the ones in the B and C cups.


what were the strengths? did they test both lenses from all three sets?

these are magnifying lenses, so if closer to the screen(C instead of A cup) the less blurring around edges of the lenses. if you are 20/20 I can't see how you can use with the C cups without causing eyestrain at least after minutes of use and still have your eyes in focus.


So, she tried to measure them by hand...but the machine she put them on only measured up to 20 diopters. So she measured them on some sort of digital machine that I didn't see. I only brought her one of each set to test. And they were 22.5, 23.5, and 24.5 diopters. Interestingly, the A cups were 23.5 diopters. Cant remember which of the B and C were which.

And the C cups did cause me terrible eye strain and ultimately, nausea. But I find it easier to focus with them. I think...that was all back before I knew my IPD was 57.5 and began adjusting it in game (all the games were defaulting to 64mm). So now things are a bit better....but I am still nauseous, dizzy and have a headache for hours or even the next day.
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Re: A Thread About Blurryness - But from a different perspec

Postby Inscothen » July 11th, 2013, 12:52 pm

that's too bad you didn't get all lenses tested but I appreciate you sharing.

I wonder if there are differences because of manufacturing tolerances for the lenses or if from different batches or specifically chosen by Oculus for their strengths.

If you wanna try different lenses, maybe try to find a 45mm 6x magnifying lens and 3d printed eyecups. or maybe custom eyecups with the Rift lenses offset for your low IPD and correct in software. With the larger diameter and lower magnification you should have a more clear image. They would have to be further away from the screen and closer to your eyes but It might be a improvement if you could get it setup right.
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Re: A Thread About Blurryness - But from a different perspec

Postby geekmaster » July 11th, 2013, 11:31 pm

Huckleberry wrote:... And they were 22.5, 23.5, and 24.5 diopters. Interestingly, the A cups were 23.5 diopters. Cant remember which of the B and C were which. ...

Diopter / 4 + 1 = Magnification (for simple lenses)
22.5 / 4 + 1 = 6.625x
23.5 / 4 + 1 = 6.875x
24.5 / 4 + 1 = 7.125x

Unfortunately, aspheric lenses are not simple lenses, but these numbers may be relatively close and would explain why the 2-inch 5x aspheric lenses used in DIY Rift clones provide an FoV all the way out to the display edges, while the Rift lenses magnify a smaller portion of the display to fill your FoV.

Ref: http://www.howardelectronics.com/heiscope/illumination/diopter.html
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